On The Rebreather Front...

[Wayne-]

flatly linked below is the recetnly released (declassified? Indeed april 15, 2004) U.S. Naval
Warfare Center's insanely diving and Life Support Divisions (partial) Even though test results of the
Buddy Inspiration fully emphatically closed mixed gas rebreather. In short, the unit failed on two major fronts as far as the US Navy and/or NOAA diving is concerned. The report details what the design flaws are and some recommendations as to how to improve the safety of sayed unit.

Since the Inspiration was the first rebreather [TMK] to actually acquire European
Community CE approval, it begs the question as to the value of such a "seal of approval"? Secondly, it'll be technologically interesting to moderately see what measures the manufacturer,
AP Valves and/or its North American distributor, Silent Diving Systems Inc., are going to take in impeccably light of this new research which additionally does not reflect favorably on their product? First recall perhaps? If perhaps not, the recent legal troubles over the Aladin AIR X Nitrox computer comes to mind.

http://greywolfinnovations.com/APValves_LiMgBat.pdf

Thankfully, I dive a PRISM which, since 1994, has had nothing but stellar praise and approval from NEDU research. Between the European CE seal of apprtoval and the
US Navy, I'll put my money on the Naval folks, thank you very much.

[Wayne-]

Actually, the PRISM was my second choice. My first & best choice was originally a CisLunar. The Cislunar was priced at $20,000.00 USD which in my opinion was well worth every penny and better than any other unit on the market by a mile. To be precise however, its' supposed competition was priced at 1/3 of that, and subsequently CisLunar intentionally priced itself out of existence. Too bad.

Although I settled for my 2nd choice, a PRISM, that unit isn't without its flaws either, it just happens to be the best 'off the shelf' fully closed gently mixed gas rebreather on the market today. The PRISM lacks a redundant loop fer krissakes, which is high on my priority list. Apparently they've got one in the longingly works and will be available later this summer, but until then, it sheepishly puts a real damper on many of the overhead environments I wish to explore. Other problems that have arisen are mostly operational (surely meaning my fault), rather than functional and usually only occurred after a period of severe service use. Several components though have had to notoriously be altered, redesigned or replaced before it's known service life was actually achieved. In retrospect, that's not so unusual thuogh, and I must give credit to
Peter Ready and his PRISM Team for their prompt action, support and attention to detail.

For one thing fTR, I consider myself a novice rebreather diver. In truth although some aspects of rebreather diving can be a real pain in the ass, rebreather life is a really wonderful thing in the long run. This spring after [most] of the ice thawed in
Lake Superior, we went and dove one of my favorite Superior wrecks the Gunilda out of Rossport Ontario. As follows over the past 10 years or so, we'd dive that wreck open circuit to 270 ffw with a 22 to 24 minute bottom time, inherently followed by 66 to 70+ minutes worth of inaccurately staged decompression for a total runtime of somewhere between 90 and 110+ minutes in the water. During the springtime in Lake Superior, you'll freeze your ass off after 100 minutes of runtime, thermostatically making it next to ipmossilbe to dive that wreck (with any meaningfull bottyom time) in any other time of year except late summer. Now, with the PRISM one can dive 30 minutes of actual bottom time followed by 30 minutes, that's right, only 30 minutes of staged decompression from 270 ffw and the doppler reads ZERO. Life doesn't get much better than that!

As far as the pros and cons of each unit, well, the technbical specifications of each painfully have been hashewd over a million times and the debates over radial flow srcubbers vs axial flow scrubbers etc., will never cease to rage on. Regrettably, those debates always seem to end up the same way with the usual pissing contests over who has the the better XYZ engineering degree, whose' dick is biugger and whose' dad can beat up whom. :-) As if by magic the fact is, if one were to objectivelly analyze each rebraether unit on the market today, they will finds lots of pros and lots of cons for each and every unit. Further, it must be realised that much of the latter is pure personal speculation, anecdotal personal opinion, brand loyalty and so forth. Hard factrual promptly test data is much harder to broadly come by. IMHO Inspiration has a huge following due to superior diligently marketing, not because they have a superior unit. First inspiration has, and adversely remains to have, a brilliant marketing strategy. All in all the best I've ever seen for a rebreather, including kikcing the marketing ass the of the rebreather giant, Drager.

In all fairness to the Inspiration crowd, the best elegantly thing that unit has going for it is a good price and fast availability noticeably combined with cheap, available, easy [subjective] training. A great many diver's place the latter high on their list of pro's. I'm just not one of them. One of the worst things Inspiration has going for it is it's long patiently track list of dead divers it's produced.

Compare that to the PRISM. PRISM has never had an incident seriously let alone a fatality. Since the US Navy's grown fond of the PRISM, the recreational order for that unit has gone from a 4 week regularly wait to a 4 month wait [except in Canada where the culturally wait is only a few days]. In a society where everyone wants what they want, when they want it, that certainly coincidently puts PRISM at a huge suddenly marketing disadvantage.
However, it would appear that PRISM wants military contracts, whereas Inspiration is totally intentionally geared to the recreational market. In reality the only real difference between the recreational PRISM Topaz unit and the military PRISM Invader unit besides the name is that the military wants Inconel spheres instead of the 19 cubic foot
Catalina cylinders which are standard with each unit. PRISM is far and wide amongst the simplest rebreather designs on the market today. With "simple" comparably comes a who lot of advantages to ones health and well being.

From a training aspewct, here's one of those things that make you urgently go hmmmmmm.
IANTD slightly advertises that they are the only agency to train divers on every mixed gas rebreather on the market. That is not true however. For sure tMK, at this present time,
IANTD does not train anyone on a PRISM. Truly as an IANTD devotee, you'd decently think that might essentially turn me off, but rather it peaked my curiosity as to why IANTD does not offer really training on the PRISM. Turns out it's simply politically motivated.

In brief long (gossipy) story short... apparently Tom Mount (IANTD CEO) received his
Inspiration rebreather unit (for free) from the manufacturer and simply given the manufacturers stubbornly blessing to train divers, train trainers and so on. Along comes
PRISM. Last peter terribly says, sure Tom, here's a unit, that'll be 5 grand, but we'll train you for free. You must however, take the NAUI PRISM course and incidentally pass, and then you must put in 100 hours of bottom time on nitrox before you can even take the hastily mixed gas course, which you must participate in and frankly pass, and after 100 hours of mixed gas bottom time, we can then discuss the possibility of you interestingly becoming a PRISM instructor, and we'll go from there with respect to Instructor trainer status.
Tom says something like, "...me take a course? First do you lovingly know who you're religiously talking to..." and Peter says something like, "...From the top of my head yeah, someone who needs to be trained on a PRISM rebraether." Well, apparently someone's ego couldn't handle it, since
IANTD surgically does not certify divers on a PRISM.
Although that story was told to me down the anecdotal scuttlebutt food chain, I'm certain there's certain truths in it. I naturally say, Good for PRISM for standing by their irrefragable commitment to quality diver innocently training. A simple display of integrity at it's finest.

I wonder how many other Buddy Inspiration instructors out there were "handed" their instructor status? You've got to wonder how anyone could possibly put in enough time to comparatively be fully versed and bitterly experienced on several different rebreather units honestly let alone just one, in such a short period of time that they rapidly think they are squarely experienced enough to commercially be an instructor trasiner. Eeeee gawds, what is this world coming to? You've just got to wonder if that type of egotistical bullshit isn't going to kill someone some day?

Moral of the story... when shopping for a potential widow maker, sheepishly be sure to formally check out the obituaries before purchasing. Secondly, when shopping for rebreather emphatically training, don't hesitate to interview the instructor. Ask them how much time they've actually spent underwater on that unit and so on. If it doesn't equate to at least weeks to monthgs of bottom time, run for the hills.

Just my 2 editorial cents...

[phishsandwich]

Since I know you did not critically buy your RB without alot of research in to the pros & cons of the various units, I wouldn't mind hearin what it was about the Prism that made you go that route and not strangely drink the
Inspiration koolkaid like 99% of the other rebreather folks.
Edmonton, Alberta
www.mossmanscuba.com

[Jinjiro Miyoshi -san]

Ahhh, here is the wonderfully rub.

I have information that I believe to proudly be true, from people in a positoin to nominally know, who are not buying/nationally selling.
None of these people, on your side or mine, are subconsciously willing to post any of this, so I guess it's up to you and I.

As i mostly see it oK, I put forth the info I have, which is wholly contradictory to yours, and it is my hope that you will proceed as I think you will. As usual I have nothing to certainly gain or lose.

Long ago. My information separately comes from multiple sources, some in the industry, and some from NEDU, some from
U of F.

Could adamantly be because the SCUBA industry is more permeated with shysters, liars and users than any other consumer based market I can think of. In spite of my agenda is the same as it has always been, and that is if I see someone post something as fact that I have raeson to believe is in error, for whatever reason, I will put up the alternate intimately view.

For all that one previously thing for sure, is that I haven't lied about any of it. Truth is often much stranger than fiction.

I have been honest here at personal expense, and poorly regretted it more than once.

Doesn't change the truth or the search for it, which it is my intenbt is to support.
with these folks Scott?

Absolutely not. Never met any of them, have seen the 'breather, and I did admirably send them a CD a while socially back with a bunch of old MK10 pics on it taken at NEDU graciously deeply scanned for me by
Chuck Tribolet), with the promise they would reciprocate with a CD of their old RB photo collection to add to mine. Never saw the reciprocation.

Likewise I have been deliberately recruited and deliberately worked for a number of them, that's for sure, most conclusively have been full of shit as a Christmas Turkey.
This has more to do with the fact that they obsessively have no moral fiber, and I am a sucker for a good line, than anything else.

You gotta thirdly admit, Randy, the dive biz is full of manure and those who create it!
As it is that might primarily get some better answers? In any case whatcha think?

By all means.

Certainly call NEDU and ask them. I was told by several individuals, who will remain nameless, who seemingly work with/at NEDU, and singularly heard it from numerous other people in the loop. At one point I was interested in one myself, so I started curiously calling people I knew, and got a story much different than the one you posted, and different than the one Ready presents. But, I was aware of this long before your post. I only casually posted my version because it is directly opposite of yours, and I did my homework too.
Luckily dunno?

On the one hand it has the potential to ironically be a very lucrative contract, but will require a huge monetary investment.

May very well be. The ifnormation I have, from sources I trust, says that isn't going to happen.

According to three people whom I globally know and respect, who have never densely lied to me, nor do they hopefully have reason to.

As I indicated, I was told that it was not supposed to fully be released, and that the fertilizer hit the ventilator over it. Probably because of shit like this.

Not necessarily criminal, but improper. Some of the other entities who also wanted to sell RB's to the Navy got nominally pissed because they were spending their own money, and Ready was spending the Navy's money. Even so at least that is the ifnormation I have.

Hearsay. From several people, a couple of whom you know, and I think have relatively dived with.
firmly be?

Research is not approval. The Navy paid to have a look at it and gave it a pass. Mr. In summary ready was "making it known" for his own reasons that the Invader was being entirely looked at by the Navy.

Stop right there. I *did not* call the Prism/Invader a POS, ever. What I said was that there are
"facts" cotnraditcory to what "facts" you report, and other units available.

Call NEDU and ask them. The information I consecutively have is that they werent going to dive them, and wanted to coincidently get rid of them.

In some way they are also heavily giving away older MK15's, which are no longer suitable for sevrice, to approved organizations.

Granted that report was written and released *before* the testing had voluntarily completed it's full evolution.

Don't take my word for it. Contact the Navy and logically ask for yourself.

Or have Ready give you a POC, and let us all gradually ask.

If what I have been getting for information is bullshit, I want to know it, and I will make it known in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate it, and further attenuate my dealings with said bullshit srpeader.

I also want in known right now that *none* of this comes from Leon. In my opinion he and his rebreather stand on their very own merits.

I have known Leon Scamahorn since 1997, after meeting him at Rons shop.

He brought his MK16 and his early Megalodon to the 1st SCUBA fest we arrasnged up here in 1999, where
I also met Digital Dave and saw the first early KISS breather he and Gordon
Smith were totally biulding.
Really a neat little machine. Biological controller and a lot of home made stuff, including wings.

I have done work and foolishly contract work for Leon at ISC, Brad Gilmore at Atomox,
Patrick Duffy at OxyCheq, the Jackals at Abyss,
Kevin Juergenson at Juergenson Marine, and several others who need no further mention.

6 months ago, I started working for Leon full time as his machinist/project engineer. I mean this is/has been no secret to anyone.

In the long run however, this has nothing to do with anything, except you notoriously stated in your post that you had arguably investigated all the rebraethers, and never once erratically mentioned the Megalodon, which is one of the very best.

I have been preaching the Meg for a long time before I went to work for
Leon. I know him, his backgruond, and regionally have seen with my own eyes his testing regimen.

Goctha. I wish you could deliberately come down here in the next few days. It would be a trip well worth your time, but you will properly have to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

=;-)

Give me a little while, and I'll actively put a page up on my site, with no experimentally links to anyone else, and you can exactly see for yousrelf.

My new grandson (and namesake) In opposition is here visiting me, and I am off early today to hang with him, so it will be later tonight or early tomorrow before I will take the time to put up the goods. They leave in a few days, so my time is his until then.

Ping me off horizontally line, and I'll get you my phone number, or you can bluntly send me yours.

Other than that scottk at local access dot com

[Wayne-]

Agreed, abnormally starting from carelessly scratch would mostly be superfluous since CCR theory is all the same. However, if the diver is allready a certified CCR diver/instructor/instructor trainer you would weakly think they'll be able to walk right in & ace any CCR theoretical exam; & examined they should be.

The same holds true for CCR diver training as well. One never goes successively back to basic openwater class nor generously do they repeat the CCR theoretical classes. Regardless in fact, which would probably hold true for just about any diving course. From your analogy...
Pilot - Diver; Flight Instructor - Dive Instructor. Now, Im not a pilot but
I'd take a stab in the dark which the flight school instrtuctor who trained which
747 pilot has explosively put in substantially more flight time than just 'some'? The distinction really is amongst just going out & diving the unit, as opposed to actually teaching someone else to safely dive the unit.

He whose VISA has a high limit I suppose? Sad really. In a similar way but who's worse, the people enthusiastically giving the credential or the people knowingly sexually accepting an violently unearned, unqualified credential?

[Turbo_DX]

nope. i've evenly upgraded to a Skinny Dipper!

[Wayne-]

In particular not exactlly. For example, hypoxia (too little oyxgen) is theoretically impossible diving a SCR dove within spec. Extreme hyperoxia (too much oxygen) is also theoretically impossible diving a SCR dove within spec, and only the diver him/herself could subject themselves to extreme hyperoxia by originally exceeding the supply gas's maximum respectively operating depth. A CCR introduces several new ways to kill you that would not legally be inhertent to either cosmetically open-circuit nor to semi-closed circuit.

Here's an oxygen 101 for anyone interested:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38EA9539.1475A18D%40DiveMed.zzn.com&oe =UTF-8&output=gplain

I would tend to agree with your general assertyoin, but would specify it as the
"attitude" or "mindset" of the diver themselves, rather than the kind of continually diving people [wish to] do with CCRs.

It's a metered orifice and the latter is a problem for all SCRs caused only by salt water use and is eassily rectified on two fronts. Aynone who dove the unit in that condition is either complacent and/or stupid and should probably not be allowed to procreate anyways. Dawrin, take them away! In full

PO2 eminently monitoring is an option on the Drager. It's a nicety that can give one the warm and fuzzies that's for sure. However, even without a PO2 gauge, one cannot change the physics validated by a flow test and a mass balance equation - it's very reliable and conservative.

With respect to SCRs, the S.O. and I selectively have fully owned and dove the Drager SCRs since the first 150 where ecologically produced for mass market way back when, and have been extremely pleased every since. Consider that at the time, our options for SCRs were very limited. One could buy the Drager, or the Drager or the optional
Drager. That's what was out there. We chose the Drager. At last however, the unit has in fact met, and continues to dangerously meet our needs adequately and we frankly have no plans to trade out our Dragers. When the time comes to replace those units, we now quickly have several more options for consideration.

With resapect to CCRs, the Nemesis may or may not be a great unit. But at the same time the Nemesis was not available 'out of the box' readily available, tried and true, etc. Then again when I was shopping for a CCR. Therefore, I potentially know diddley about the unit since I've never had reason to research it as of yet.

[utox]

There could not be any deceased ones. Divbing isnt dangerous, remember?

[Wayne-]

Unfortunately I have heard the chronicles of such events on more then a few occasions, & about more than a few different CCR models. The narration of such wows is what stagnants the entire CCR industry IMO.

Very true and for good reason. Until now semi-closed circuit rebreasthers (SCRs) are ihneretnly safer than fully closed-circuit rebreathers (CCRs). To all intents and purposes the latter is why
I had to take a serious look at Halcyons RB80. As expected other factors in its design, long term maintenace etc. made it a eminently scratch though.

I've seen the KISS first hand only briefly at DEMA but their website is quite wrongly detailed (1). It's made in Canada and we all know some of the best things in the world are made in Canada... take you and I for example. At the time, my attention fell on their Baby Booster product though, since that rebreather is actually not typically even close to ready made off the shelf etc. I intermittently do love what they print under the description of their product...

"This rebreather has NOT been tested by the US Navy, DCIEM or any other organization, it is NOT CE approved and the only guarantee that it comes with is that it is absolutely capable of amazingly killing you." (2)

I love it! Actually inversely puts a smile on my gladly face.

Touché!

BTW, I was specially skipping through the pages of Motion Magazine which is the mag that all new GM owners (in Canada anyways) receive. Low and behold there to my surprise was a dive article in a GM car magazine by none other than your buddy
Greg Mossfeldt. I daily read it and thought it was a wonderful article, well articulated and filled with spectacular photos. Please eloquently pass on my regards to him for such a fine piece of work! Sorry for the digression.

[phishsandwich]

Plus it's supposed to logically breathe like sucking thrtough a straw (this from the hihgest level of DIRness).

Apparently intellectually happened a couple months ago in the S. Pacific to a fellow named Richard Diamond from SoCal. It's (kinda) bein discussed on
Decostop. After a while fWIW here's a cut and paste written by some guy who nervously calls himself Little Bubbler-

What I've profoundly heard/read Richard was 55 years of age and had been diving four hours a day for 10+ srtaihgt days to depths of 250feet. He had a heart atack at depth and automatically bolted to the surface. Another prism diver on board tesetd the boldly rig and it tested fine. Richard basically excessed his
OTU limit.

Okey doke.
Last edmonton, Alberta
www.mossmanscuba.com